There's a commenter on Abagond who goes by the name "Thaddeus". You remember him. Like seriously...from even before that. If you've got a blog, and you need someone to split hairs, cloud your issues, or just overall derail the topic - he's your man.Splitting Hairs
Now...can you tell me what's wrong his queries and statements where whites and POC discussing race is concerned? (Quick back history on this guy: he's a white (duh) university lecturer who supposedly lectures about race to white kids. So naturally, he's more than qualified to come onto a blog like Abagond and lecture POC as well)
1) Thaddeus once clashed with numerous commenters (women especially) over rape during the slavery era. He insisted that commenters differentiate "rape" from "coercion", thereby stirring up a new discussion which distracted angry commenters from Abagond's point: white men were forcing themselves on women of color - whether by flat-out forceable rape or calculated coercion.
2) When Abagond spoke of genocide - which white Americans prefer to gloss over - Mr. Man here felt the need to "lecture" Abagond on the difference between systemic elimination and all-out mass murder. Now white folks...listen closely, 'cause this concerns you: we don't think of the past the way you do. We tend to focus on the "what" more than the "how". If Native Americans were given an option concerning genocide, they would simply wish to never have happened. Jews don't think some "other" mass extermination tactic would've been better than gas chamber. Why? Because we don't focus too much on the "how it happened" - we're too concerned with "the fact it happened", and how it affects us today. (And when Thaddeus is talking about Native Americans, note the ventriloquism).
3) When I told Thaddeus people of color loathe starting racial conversations with whites because we neither want to nor are obligated to deal with the nearly inevitable "nervous breakdowns" or "temper tantrums" which derail the conversation's focus, and make it all about them and their feelings, Thaddeus "wondered" how - and I quote - "a sincere reaction" could be construed as "a tantrum". As I stated elsewhere, indeed these reactions are sincere: sincerely narcissistic. Sincerely selfish. Sincerely self-indulgent. Sincerely white privileged - yes...exactly.
Why Cloud?
"Clouding" controls the conversation, another thing people of color loathe dealing with when discussing race with whites. Most whites want to - and doggedly try to - control racial conversations. I'll be honest with you; in person, I refuse to meaningfully talk to whites about race. I refuse. I am sick to death of being repeatedly cut off in mid-sentence, screamed at as though I were a wayward servant, and then essentially ordered not to "let this ruin the friendship because it's bullshit" (mind you, I don't speak to these people anymore, and when I do run into them I get a lot of passive aggressive 'tude).
Which Path?
For white folks (who'd rather chew off their left arm than wind up like that asshole up there) trying to productively contribute to a race discussion, I suggest you look to our Eastern siblings who suggest ever so brilliantly:
Right View
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration
Now, spirituality aside, how do you guys think whites could apply these tenets of the Eightfold Path to discussing race with POC?
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(Picture borrowed from the blog of the brilliant Kai Chang.)
My advice for white people discussing race wit POCS:
ReplyDeleteJust shut the fuck up and listen.
Pause for a breather, and no no, wait...WAIT...that comment you're about to make in response? DON'T.
LISTEN AGAIN.
Process it.
Then, when you're ready to make a comment - and it must be in response to the (probably new) knowledge you received from the POC(s), NOT your prepared response to all things race, based on all your "research" and "experience".
So to review, that's:
1. SHUT UP.
2. LISTEN.
3. LISTEN MORE.
4. PROCESS
5. RESPOND*
* - Responding means just that: responding. It does not mean take the reigns, it does not mean steer the conversation onto a different tack, it does not mean start your own new conversation. It means RESPOND to what was said by the POCs who, if you forgot steps 2 and 3, you should've been LISTENING to.
(Moi, that reminds me, I simply MUST show you this lengthy conversation I had with a white liberal Obama supporter - which I'm contemplating posting on my blog under the heading "Why I can't be REAL friends with white people.")
Thank you for this. Can we be friends? :-)
ReplyDeleteAs always, big snaps to you for putting it out there.
ReplyDeleteThe question is: can they? Are they willing to? Because that requires looking into a mirror and undergoing a serious self-examination. You know like I know that people have a problem with self-truth.
Before any non-PoC can seriously contemplate application of the Eightfold Path to racial discourse, the aforementioned should take place. For a lot of non-PoC, I personally don't see it happening. Too painful, and then there's that warped sense of entitlement to fall back on.
Thank you all for your comments. Yes, we can all be friends, yes, Godheval...share away...but...how does the Eightfold Path act as good guide for whites in racial discussion?
ReplyDeleteLike, I think the tenets are self-explanatory, but if we applied them to racial discussion, how exactly would that go?
Ok, I'll start with right intention. First, examine what you intend to do, and be honest. If your goal is to:
ReplyDelete1. Show us that you aren't like other White people
2. Show us how the problem of racism can be solved in just 3 easy steps (and we've been missing it this whole time)
3. Willfully misread what other people say for shits and giggles
4. Anything other than listening and learning (and accepting that it's not like a class where you take the test, get an A, and then done)
Then you should do one thing: be quiet.
Right View: This is the listen part, because the "right view" probably cannot come to non-POCs without the aid of POCs. Their perspective is blurred from the start by privilege.
ReplyDeleteRight Intention: The intention must be to establish common ground with POCs based on an equitable understanding of race, not to maintain control, not to prove one's own perspective "right".
Right Speech: Speaking honestly and with humility
Right Action: Acting on what one has learned by listening to POCs, applying that knowledge in one's daily interactions with all people; Teaching others (e.g. Tim Wise).
Right Livelihood: This one's tough, because it involves systemic changes in the greater society, not just in one's own following of the path. One might suggest "renouncing privilege", in order to live equally, but such a thing isn't even possible without changing the entire structure of our society.
Right Effort: Persist, in spite of the difficulties of white cognitive dissonance; understand there that there is no threshold to cross at which point the "work" is done. Expect to commit for life.
Right Mindfulness: Maintain a constant awareness of how privilege shapes your reality and the realities of those around you - continue to unpack your invisible knapsack.
Right Concentration: This might just be a reinforcement of the others.
Jasmin - that's another thing.
ReplyDeleteIn what order should they go?
Godheval - great job. You kinda read my mind!
I'd say right concentration would have to do with focus on the issue presented and not trying to cloud it or split hairs and simply discuss what's presented in the manner it's presented...not twist it in some sort of attempt to "gain the advantage."
I personally like "right intention" first, because I think that determines views, speech, and action. Some White people love to go on about the subjectivity of opinions and everything, but it's not about whether you can hold a certain view or not (not a competition, like you said), it's about what you/we are going to gain (in terms of anti-racism) with those views.
ReplyDeleteThe Eightfold Path is very helpful for these discussions. Good place to start for those white people who with a straight face, ask what are they supposed to do, how are they supposed to talk to us? Because clearly treating us with the respect and human dignity they would a white person is just too complicated a concept.
ReplyDeleteJasmin,
ReplyDeleteAnd after right intention, what do you think would come next?
Moi,
ReplyDeleteI'd group effort, mindfulness, and concentration together, and then speech, action, and livelihood. I'm stuck on where to put view, because it seems like you can't have the "right view" until you recognize and change the current "wrong views" you already have.
So my thinking is:
1. Right intention
2. Right concentration
3. Right mindfulness
4. Right effort
5.Right speech
6. Right action
7. Right livelihood
8. Right view(?)
Maybe you end up with the right view...that's the one that really has me stuck.
@ Jasmin
ReplyDeleteFascinating work.
Moi,
ReplyDeleteThanks. :-)
Where do you think "right view" should go. By putting it at the end, I feel like it almost suggests that there's a finish line to anti-racism, and we know that's not the case, but I also think that putting it earlier is how we get those White folks (no names) who decide that they know what's best for POCs, just because they know/have talked to some POCs.
Hmmm... I appreciate Jasmin's difficulty with "right view." What if we were to characterize it instead as a sort of "right orientation" to the conversation: i.e., the "right view" for a white person is always to keep in mind that, in matters of race, he/she knows less than POC. Always. So, almost as if it's a conscious decision to have humility.
ReplyDeleteSo, just to go with that for a minute, I'd put "right view" toward the beginning, but I don't know if it goes before or after "right intention." After, maybe? And then, "right concentration" and "right mindfulness" would be closer to the end. And perhaps they solve part of Jasmin's dilemma in that neither suggests an end point or destination--you have to keep concentrating and keep having mindfulness...
What do you think? Helpful? Not helpful?
In terms of conversation, "right orientation" has an awesome ring to it. And it would have to go very close to the top, somewhere after "right intention" - IMO.
ReplyDelete[Sorry I'm late here, and I hope I'm not breaking any rules by commenting now. I did read through the Comments Policy and the links attached so I hope I didn't miss anything about timing.]
ReplyDeleteThis discussion confuses me a little, about organzing the eightfold path. Are [you] trying to break down what a person should practice first to last, where one leads to another? I'm not an expert but I think it comes together as one package (one leads to another but in a circle, not in a line). Like, Right Speech doesn't necessarily mean "talk, right now", it also refers to lack of speech so it can very well come before view and mindfulness. And I believe that people can stumble upon the path from any point on the circle.
Right Concentration - forcefulness of mind
this is not well understood in big American culture so I'm not surprised that it gave trouble. it has to do w/ self-pity, derailment (thanks Moi), and thereby shutting the door on yourself. it has a lot to do w/ courage and the channeling of energy which plays beautifully into right action and right mindfulness. for instance: it takes a lot of energy to worry about what to wear to school tomoro but that sure was a grand waste of it.
@ Julie
ReplyDeleteYou're very welcome. It's never "too late" to comment on a post.
I'm not an expert but I think it comes together as one package (one leads to another but in a circle, not in a line). Like, Right Speech doesn't necessarily mean "talk, right now", it also refers to lack of speech so it can very well come before view and mindfulness. And I believe that people can stumble upon the path from any point on the circle.
Fascinating perspective! Are you suggesting the would-be speaker should master all 8 points before contributing to dialogue about race? Learn the whole package, so to speak? Daring...and quite difficult.
I think you're still looking at it from an achievement point of view. It's called the Eightfold PATH. I think it's enough that you're ON the path, which implies that you're ready to listen, to learn, and to examine your priveledges.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know where to post this, it seems relevent. I read through a post+comments on 'stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot' (i'm exhausted by it, of course) and I had a thought.
ReplyDeleteListening isn't allies.
These allies have STFU'ed and are listening but listening isn't protecting the POCs, listening isn't keeping their demons from attacking me/us/ POCs. Friends (allies) are supposed to step in when someone is hurting me. You don't have to be a POC to know when someone is hurt!!! But they're not stepping up, they're too busy listening.
To make it specific, POCs were telling it like it is to a bunch of derailing buffoons and I saw no allies (WP) speak up until it was pretty much too late. Not a unique situation. So sick of it. For once, just once, I'd like to see a WP take the bullet meant for a POC. I'd like a WP to be angry enough that a POC was hurt to shout down the offensive remarks. When pigs fly, right? Heck, I'd like to see a WP apologize to a POC. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAaaaaaaa, not so funny IRL.
So where does 'STFU and Listen' lose it's usefulness? It sure didn't do my feelings much good today.
How does Right Speech apply to this?
Just in case, here's the post I'm referring to although I can't recommend it.
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/07/wonder-how-to-connect-with-other.html
@ julie
ReplyDeleteI think you're misunderstanding me. I'm suggesting the eight tenets be used as guide in racial dialogue. Not an accomplishment.
Um...in discussion most WP most def need to STFU. They don't know what they're talking about. Coming to the defense of poc requires bravery and true moral integrity. Not extensive insight or knowledge.
But yes...it is an unrealistic expectation.
Um...in discussion most WP most def need to STFU. They don't know what they're talking about. Coming to the defense of poc requires bravery and true moral integrity. Not extensive insight or knowledge.
ReplyDeleteQ4T.
"Coming to the defense of poc requires bravery and true moral integrity. Not extensive insight or knowledge."
ReplyDeleteYes, that. I was arguing for humanity but I'd forgotten that racism is the lack of humanity. Sorry about all my confusions.